How American Driver's Ed Has Failed: Instead of Reporting It, Let's Prevent It

"No, I don't thank you for the fish at all" (notindetroit) 12/12/2013 at 14:47 • Filed to: drivers' education, education, driving, teens, cell phones, distracted driving

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This is the introduction to what's intended to be a recurring series that will pick up in the new year pending further research.

If you've been hanging out on Jalopnik/OppositeLock for any length of time, eventually you're going to see such stories as !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Admittedly, these type of headlines aren't exactly the most popular on the FP/Jalopnik proper. I'll readily admit that I'm one of them. And you know what? You should feel this way too. A quick visit to Wikipedia reveals that !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! That's down from the previous year but still way too many. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Or if nothing else !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Maybe it's media sensationalism since "teen kills someone while driving" seems to be a very grabbing headline, but it still points to something being a problem.

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The act of driving itself isn't the problem, as I (or for that matter, you) should be living proof of that. Safe attentive drivers are inherently safe drivers !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

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Is distracted driving to blame? Yes, no, maybe... !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (yeah, I couldn't resist that).

There's one school of thought that says that !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . In which case, it isn't to blame.

The "maybe" concerns distracted driving as being a symptom , not a cause. Teens are looking down at their phones because to them, driving isn't an activity, it's something that happens to get them from point A to B and, consequently, inefficiently eating into time that could be used for other activities. So they rectify that by multitasking. In other words, it's not a distracted driving problem. It's not a phone attitude problem. It's a driving attitude problem .

Many teens may care about cars insofar they want something cool and maybe even something Jalop - but relatively few teens actually care to drive their cars safely and effectively. I submit to you this is because, simply, relatively few people even care to bother to teach them how to drive effectively in the first place.

The massive fail that is the American Drivers' Education System

Maybe things have changed since I took my test, but my driver's education consisted of the following:

- A week long lecture-style class (quite literally a class, as it was right at my high school given by my own teachers) that lasts about one hour each weekday taken the June before I turn 16. In my case, it meant a full year from the time I took this class until I was age-eligible to take the driver's license test.

- A manual (actually, more like a glorified pamphlet) that goes over prescribed driving procedure in a very "by the book" (i.e., useless) style.

- Taking the actual written test which consists of a very simple, multiple-choice test that is arguably designed to allow testers to pass rather than actually evaluate their worthiness as drivers.

- Taking the practical portion of the testing process, which consisted of 2 miserable hours in a Honda with my freakin' gym teacher telling me to "slow down and obey the speed limit" every time I attempted to blend into the flow of traffic.

- Within the one year between taking the lecture course and when I was age-eligible for taking the written and practical test, 40 hours of day instruction and 10 hours of night instruction to be administered and logged by a parent, of which beyond those two hour-based stipulations is pretty much "anything goes."

And that's it. That's all that was between me and a shiny laminated piece of posterboard that gave me legal permission to operate a 2-ton road-bound kamikazie missile. Oh, wait. There was also a $25 fee and proof of residency to actually get them to take a picture, print and laminate said piece of posterboard too.

And people wonder why there are so many stories about teens or young adults killing themselves or other people in auto-related accidents.

There's a not-so-old saying that goes: You reap what you stupid. If you treat the drivers' education process as a punishing formality that needs to end as soon as possible, with long gaps between the useless instruction and useless testing, you end up with smug assholes who feel that teen girls and young women shouldn't be allowed to drive on the road and are just plowing over people left and right, and they'll have the statistical data to back them up because nobody bothered to properly teach them how to drive in the first place, so no duh they'll kill themselves and other people .

Oh, and congratulations, you've also pretty much institutionalized a very blazé attitude about the activity of driving right into the very mechanisms of drivers' education and its processes .

How it's done elsewhere

I know that, anecdotally at least, drivers' education is taken much more seriously in Europe. I also know that it's also much more expensive. What I don't know is the exact process or how it differs, so I'll leave other people to comment on it.

What I do know is how at least some aspects of motorcycle riders' education works in parts of this country, a process I went through in order to earn the letter "M" on my piece of laminated posterboard. Now as I understand it the "normal" process isn't much different:

- Pay some sort of fee

- Take a written test that is more or less designed to allow testers to pass rather than evaluate them as actual riders

- Take some sort of practical exam

- Get your picture taken and get your license handed back, except now it has the letter "M" on it.

If it sounds like I have at best a vague recollection of that whole process, it's because I didn't go through any of that in the first place. I went a drastically different route. taking a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! riders' safety course which consists of the following:

- Pay a much higher fee

- Go through one day that is nothing but lecture/video instruction - for three hours

- Go through another morning of lecture/video instruction for a few hours

- Get actual, detailed, demonstrated instruction on motorcycle riding for a few hours

- Actually practice and get evaluated on that same motorcycle instruction on an actual motorcycle for a few hours, not being permitted to move on until the motorcycle instructor clears you to advance

- Repeat for one more day

- Take what is pretty much the DMV's lousy written test

- Take a practical test in which you are scored by several instructors and not permitted to advance in the test until you have demonstrated a sufficient score

- Go to the DMV with paperwork proving that you have satisfied the passing conditions of this MSF-approved riders' safety course where they wave their own requirements and print you a new license right away because you just busted your ass doing something infinitely harder and more challenging than whatever worthless crap they require .

Note that a key element is missing from the riders' safety course that the standard new drivers' practicum admittedly has a leg up on: 50 hours of observed instruction and practice prior to eligibility. Unfortunately, there are practical limitations to this (I've yet to meet a motorcycle instructor willing to put his or her neck out in order to ride bitch with a clueless newbie rider for one hour, let alone 50). But many would-be licensed riders take their own initiative and go out and buy a little 250cc bike or less and ride around the neighborhood on that. Yes, this is technically illegal but as long as you stick to the slower neighborhood roads the cops won't pull you over (don't quote me on this).

How to make it not fail

The takeaway from this is that the MSF-sponsored course, as short as it is, is far more rigorous than what the DMV can provide and I really feel has made me a better-skilled, better-alert rider. If there was, say, an equivalent to this for new drivers, perhaps they can become better drivers better attuned to the act of driving and less likely to plow into people as well.

As a matter of fact, there is.

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! located near Lexington, Kentucky has been somewhat of a media darling in the past year (covered by both MotorWeek and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ) and is more or less exactly like the type of instruction and training you'd get at an MSF-sponsored course applied to cage drivers. Like the MSF-sponsored course it's also a bit more expensive than just going through the DMV - which you need to do as a prerequisite anyway as the course only accepts already licensed drivers (ideally ones who just got theirs laminated).

And that's part of the problem right there. Fixing the horrendous state of drivers' education in this country is going to take a bit of resources. Resources that will be met with some resistance, as cities and counties are always in budget battles. And perhaps resistance from the public as well who perhaps feel that there are enough impediments to licensed driving as well. After all, it's a birthright - being able to drive at the age of 16 is almost automatically given. Perhaps this is even reflected in the "designed to pass" nature of the DMV's written test.

But in the meantime, younger drivers are ill-equipped to even care about driving, let alone perform the actual act. In later installments, I'll look into what can be done to change that, one small step at a time.

William Byrd > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 14:52

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Good write-up and a good cause. As a parent of an almost 10 year old and an almost 7 year old, I have some anxiety about them being on the road both now and when they are old enough to drive.

I used to be a volunteer instructor at the "Totally Cool Driving School" in the DC area. Basically we had instructors like myself who had racing experience and we set up a series of courses in a high school parking lot and had students (with parents along for the ride in the back-seat) drive through slalom courses, wet skidpads, an "egg" (decreasing radius turn) and some other courses designed to make them lose control and learn how to correct it. It was so much more than they were ever taught in driver's ed and I like to think it improved their car control 10X. Plus the instructors were allowed to hoon their own cars at lunch with the kids riding along. haha

I'm also in favor of retesting US drivers, both written and driving tests every 10-20 years or so. Older people (above 60) even more often.

It's a "Porch-uh" > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 14:57

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Need to be in a meeting in a few minutes, so I admit I skimmed, but so far, agree with what you said.

I went to two different driving schools (Rusell Racing's Highway Survival Course and the Alameda County Sheriff's advanced driving course) because my parents knew what kind of driver I would be (raced carts for years). I was shocked at the end of my license test. "That was it? Go around the block a few times, parallel park, and don't crash into anything. You're going to let me drive a two-ton truck without adult supervision now?!"

Converse > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 15:00

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You hit the nail on the head. I work with a charity called B.R.A.K.E.S. (Be Responsibale And Keep Everyone Safe). We take drivers aged 15-19 that have their permit or license and put them in a classroom for an hour and behind the wheel for 3 hours going through courses designed to simulate real world conditions.It's a good intro and opens the kids' eyes that they have to be paying attention and actively driving instead of driving re-actively.

It amazes me that ability (or lack thereof) of the students behind the wheel. You can really tell which child has parents that actively taught them how to drive and the nuances like where to look and the children whose parents signed the form saying they rode with their child for 30 hours (even though they instead screamed and yelled for 5 hours of it and saved themselves 25 hours more terror by signing off on their child).

I am totally with you that we have to increase the difficulty and the scope of the way we teach and test children on how to drive.

One last thing, what makes an educator an expert on driving? At the very least the school system should be contracting with actual drivers that are certified in some manner instead of a faculty member that drew the short straw.

Klaus Schmoll > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 15:01

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No need to have an instructor sitting "bitch" on the motorcycle. In Germany they just follow the bike in a car and communicate with the trainee via radio.

PushToStart > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 15:07

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American drivers ed had completely failed, that I entirely agree with. The drivers ed programs are crap everywhere, and honestly parent taught isn't much better, except in my case, since my dad has a lot of automotive and racing background. I have friends that either went through regular drivers ed and told me how pointless it was and how much of a joke it was. I've also had other friends tell me that they had their parents bullshit hours on their driving log, also bad. The US needs a better and more standardized drivers ed program, period.
There is one thing that I would like to say about your write up, though. You make it seem in a couple places that all teens are the problem, and they aren't. It's not all of them. I'm a teen, and I absolutely never drive distracted, I never violate any driving laws, and I've never been in any close calls or accidents. However, I understand how it's easy to put all teens into that category of "unsafe driver" because, let's be honest, most of them are. A lot of them speed and drive distracted, and in many cases do those two at the same time. But I'd also like to point out, so do full grown adults. Sure, majority of the problem is teens, but that's because adults have learned to do bad habits better, if that makes any sense. So please, don't point out all teens and label every single one as "bad driver" and also, don't forget that age and "experience" doesn't equate to being a better driver.

Good piece though and I look forward to reading more about it.

Tom McParland > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 15:08

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Excellent post...I've been saying this for years

BATC42 > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 15:27

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Great article ! I knew the US driving ed wasn't great.

This is hot it goes in France :

- Fee : around 1000 €, but you can pay using the 1€ per day option

- Written test : before you can take any driving lessons, you have to pass a written test : 40 questions about driving situations, the law, ... More than 5 wrong answer and you can't pass

- Driving lessons : at least 20 hours of driving with an instructor, I did 22, some do way more, like 40 or 50. You're cleared with your lessons when the instructor says so.

- You can apply for the driving ed at age 16, but you can't get your license before turning 18. So in the mean time you can, if you want, drive with your parents (or anyone who is at least 28 and has more than 5 years of driving behind him) during the 2 years gap. During those two years you have to log at least 3000 km. This is the only time you can drive your own car. You have to be insured on said car to drive it, even with one of your parents in the passenger seat.

- Driving test : someone will evaluate you during a one hour driving session. He will tell you to go somewhere but won't give you any direction (unless you're lost). Then he will evaluate if you can park correctly, ...And asks you general questions on the car (like where is the brake fluid ? The spare tire ?)

- If you get your license you have a two year probative period, during which you're supposed to drive slower (80km/h instead of 90, 100 instead of 110 and 110 instead of 130), you also have to put a "A" (for learner in French) on your car. And during this perdio you only have 6 points on your license instead of 12. Keeping in mind going between 0 and 20 km/h over the limit will get you to lose 1 point. Plus, insurance is quite expensive. For my Citroën (110 hp, 6 fiscal horsepower) I had to pay 1300€ a year.

duurtlang > Klaus Schmoll 12/12/2013 at 15:32

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In the Netherlands it's quite the same

ZDMW > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 15:33

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Nice write up, I fully agree with you. Getting a license is a complete joke. From what I remember what was involved:

1) 8 - 16hrs Classroom time - Taking a class which consisted of reading through the book/pamphlet (you are spot on about the pamphlet thing), and watching movies about hamburger face (truly the only thing I actually recall from the class).

2) 4 hours driving with instructor - Same experience as yours with your gym-teacher driving around while they did crossword puzzles.

3) Multiple choice test - this was actually computerized so as soon as you got X number of correct answers it would just end. I remember that some kid tried asked me if I knew some answer to his test. I lied and told him I did not know, even at that point I realized what a joke it had been and if you can't answer some very simple questions about the rules of the road you have some problems.

4) Practical test with a police officer - This consisted of taking a left onto a main road, turning off onto a side street, doing a 3pt turn then going back the DMV. Total time to see if I was fit to operate a 2-ton vehicle, under 3 minutes.

Also if I remember correctly the classroom and driving instructor part was only if you were under 18. Once you are 18 you don't need to do that.

KirkyV > Klaus Schmoll 12/12/2013 at 15:37

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Ditto for the UK.

duurtlang > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 15:43

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Let me tell you what I needed to do for my license (2001, the Netherlands)

I had to wait until my 18th birthday for everything

I had to choose a commercial driving school (no high school involved)

I took a few lessons in a class at the driving school, but most of the theory I had to study on my own. From a book, although you've got great software nowadays.

Multiple choice test at a government facility. I believe >5 mistakes out of 50 questions meant you failed. This has changed after 2001, the questions aren't multiple choice anymore.

During the same time period I started driving an actual car. Supplied by the driving school. I did about 35 hours in a car with a manual (auto='crippled' license) and dual controls with a licensed instructor in the passenger seat. This wasn't my parents' car, as that obviously didn't have dual controls.

The driving test took about an hour, and included things like a hill start with a manual.

That 35 hour part was by far the most expensive, as you've got a trained professional giving you one on one tuition for 35 hours. The above method was mandatory, the amount of hours was not. However, with insufficient training you'll simply fail the test. I had the test after about 28 hours I believe, but I failed. Which is common. So I added a few more hours, and passed the second time.

JimSlade > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 15:46

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US has a flawed system...and here is more proof of it...

StevenG > PushToStart 12/12/2013 at 15:46

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In another decade read this comment again. As someone who just made it past 30 this is one of those things that you are going to be laughing at soon.

StevenG > duurtlang 12/12/2013 at 15:49

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This is exactly what the US needs.

Well that and at least $1000 fines for using your phone in the car. Add another zero if we can. At least once a day I see someone doing this at 65mph on the freeway and changing lanes without looking since they are preoccupied.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 15:49

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Unfortunately I don't have time to read the whole article, but it seems dead on.

Heres a mind blower - I didn't drive on a normal road for my road test to get a license in NJ back in 2003.

I drove in a parking lot.

I never went over 15 mph.

That was the whole test. I didn't skip a portion. Parallel parking and a K turn were real important to pass though.

jariten1781 > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 15:54

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Man, your drivers ed was way more rigorous than mine. Mine consisted of my grandfather yelling at me some morning at like 3am when I was 11 or so to 'go get the truck' because something was busted on the farm. Then driving around on the farm till I was about 14 when my chores expanded to include going to town. Then when I turned 16 going into the highway patrol office so they could print me out a license. That was it. By the time I was eligible for drivers ed I had already been driving regularly for nearly 5 years. I doubt you can still do that though.

I just don't know how you would make a workable system that would significantly improve general safety. The problem is that basic driving is easy and necessary. With an hour behind the wheel most people will have the ability to get any automatic to and from the grocery store in good weather without a problem as long as nothing out of the ordinary happens. That's really the extent of what most people want to drive for. Driving well, knowing your limits, evaluating road conditions, being able to safely react to all types of rare situation, etc is hard and is a life long learning process. Most people don't care about anything beyond being able to get where they're going in the fastest, least obtrusive, most efficient way possible. While they're behind the wheel, the act of driving is their third or fourth priority behind making calls, calming children, putting on make up, reading texts, fretting about being late, eating fries, whatever.

IMO it's an attitude problem, not primarily an education problem. Making them go to lectures (and showing them scary videos) and making them drive on instructed courses may help for the first couple months when they're brand new and still scared, but once they're comfortable that'll all go out the window as driving becomes less a priority and more of a necessary nuisance.

MC_Leon6494 > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 15:55

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I agree completely. The American system for Driver's Ed is terrible. I took my driver's ed class about 6 months after getting my permit, so as to have experience with driving beforehand. I had the 40 hours of parent driving done by August of that year ( i got my permit in May), had a mid october driver's ed and took until late January to finish driving hours. It took until May of this year for me to actually get into the DMV and take my test. I did, and passed (thankfully). After this I drove my father's truck most of the time when I needed to get places. Early July, I bought my own car (03 Accord Coupe, 5 speed) and this really opened my eyes. It is my car that i take care of . I follow the rules of the road and don't text and drive, but everyone around me is. My car has been hit twice (two times!!) while parked outside where I work. It's a small parking lot (max maybe 2 dozen cars...) and in 5 months of driving the car it's been hit twice due to other driver's distraction or negligence. I see people my age (17), younger and older driving constantly on a phone or doing something else. They don't care that with a small screw up they could kill themselves or others. Kids do the bare minimum, get their license, forget half of what they learned and then break the law. The way Driver's Ed is taught is extremely hands-off at times (you can outright lie about having 40 hours experience with parents, and instructors don't bat an eye) and not enough time is put into teaching kids properly.

Kerberos824 > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 15:56

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Teens aren't the only one who need driving attitude problem. If I go stand out on the sidewalk in front of my office and watch the cars go by (around 20 mph, dense city traffic) 7 out 10 people are on their cell phones. Either looking down and texting, or holding it steering wheel level and doing the same. It appears that no one under the age of 40 actually uses their phone for talking, only texting. Driving while talking doesn't appear to be the problem.

And apparently, my driver's license was even easier to acquire than yours. I wasn't given any classroom time. My mom taught me how to drive manual in a state park that closed down in the fall, and that's where I learned the basics. Took the written permit exam (what sign is in the shape of an octagon?), got my permit, and was free to drive with anyone over 21. I don't recall a specific amount of time or hours before I could take the test. I drove with my mom everywhere for six months, took the 12 minute road test, passed, and was free to go out on my own. There was some ridiculous stipulation that I couldn't be out passed 9:00 PM. I think I followed that for about three days.

Garland - Last Top Comment on Splinter > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 15:59

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Considering I was taught to drive by mother and grandfather (both retired SCCA racers and my mom was also a retired defensive driving instructor), I didn't have these problems. I learned from an early age to respect cars and driving. I also saw firsthand what happens when cars suddenly hit things. Not everyone can grow up at a race track, but still, kids need to appreciate these things. Maybe driver's ed classes can involve a trip to the junkyard to see what happens when you mess up.

I remember freaking out during driver's ed and the tests. I ended up getting perfect scores and all sorts of compliments for actually paying attention. I was shocked that I didn't even have to parallel park on my final driving test. The whole system is a joke.

asmallcat > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:01

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At the end of the day it just needs to be much, much harder to get a license and there should be renewal tests every X years. Yeah, it would be super annoying but would keep idiots off the roads.

tobythesandwich > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:01

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"The CDC says motor vehicle accidents are the number one cause of youth fatalities."

Hello Captain Obvious! Driving is one of the most dangerous thing a young person does. Sure there are people underage who drink/smoke/drugs. But for argument's sake we'll say a large majority of them don't. So naturally the giant chunk of metal and plastic hurling itself down the road at 65mph is going to be much more dangerous. On top of that, many are not financially stable enough to purchase brand new cars and are buying older cars with outdated safety tech. Best example is the Fifth Gear segment I believe pitting an old Volvo wagon (a very safe car in it's day) against a newer car... Renault? Citroen? I can't remember. But point is the older car's driver would have suffered substantial injuries. So naturally youth are at a higher risk.
It doesn't really mean young drivers are unsafe, it's just a pointless statistic as it doesn't really correlate to the argument.

That being said. I do think the current driver education system is way too relaxed. Mine wasn't very relaxed and was actually pretty thorough. But there are many that rush you through just to collect their check. And unfortunately the US does not have a good public transit system anywhere really. There are a few here and there that have a decent system. But compared to most other major cities in the world, we are an absolute cluster fuck. It also doesn't help that are country is so large that unless you live by a major city, you need to drive.

But the worst part is. No matter what we do, we cannot really fix it without major change. There's too much revenue lost on ticketing new drivers, driver's education shams, etc etc. Also it should be mentioned that many people view being able to drive in the US is a right and not a privilege. Good luck convincing them otherwise.

DatBomb > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:02

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how is a fresh accident already rusted?

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:02

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I think you're behind the times as for what is involved in drivers ed. I got my licence when I was 16 years old in 2005 in Michigan, this is what was involved:

At 14 years 9 months you could take Drivers Ed Level 1, it was 3 weeks long, 4 days a week 2 hours per day. So 24 hours of classroom instruction. Then you needed at least 6 hours of seat time with the instructor.

Passing that class got you your permit, once you had that you were required to get at least 30 hours of seat time with your parents. After you had your Permit for at least 2 months (normally much longer) you took level 2 which was another 6 hours of classroom instruction.

Then take a driving test from a certified third party.

Then once you had done all that and turned 16 you could get your licence.

Also your motorcycle info is off too,

I now live in Texas and to get your motorcycle endorsement you are required to take a MSF class.

Both of the incidents you cited at the top involved drunk driving, not a lack of training. (EDIT: Only one did sorry) You get better at driving by driving and through maturity. When I look back at how I drove in High School I hate myself for being so reckless, and no amount of classroom training would have fixed that. Most teenagers think they are invincible and don't even consider that something bad could happen to them. Ultimately like most issues involving children and teenagers it comes down to parenting: parents need to evaluate whether or not their children are safe to operate a motor vehicle, which is why I think at least in Michigan they require so much parental seat time.

VashVashVash > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:02

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While I agree that US drivers ed is horrible, I don't think that making it more thorough will do much to reduce vehicle fatalities. The problem, I think, isn't so much that drivers find themselves in situations they lack the skills to get out of, it's that they find themselves in situation no amount of skill can get out of. And they find themselves in those situations, because one of them wasn't paying attention to begin with. No amount of training can make a new driver give a damn about their driving. You can't make someone concentrate and pay attention, no matter how thorough and extensive the training course is.

CalzoneGolem > Klaus Schmoll 12/12/2013 at 16:03

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I used to live next to a dmv office. They would follow motorcycles in a car and beep instructions at them.

noise > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:04

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HOW DARE YOU FAIL MY CHILD IN DRIVERS ED EVERY AMERICAN IS ENTITLED TO A LISCENSE DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM? I M AKE MORE MONEY IN A WEEK THAN YOU DO IN A YEAR AS A DRIVERS ED TEACHER YOU ARE NOBODY MY CHILD IS A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE

the problem with american drivers ed is american parents. The town i grew up in had the highest failure rate of driving tests in New England. I lived in a region where there wasnt much of a public transportation infrastructure, the towns were poor so the roads were shit, the kids were increasingly upper middle class and very entitled, the hills were extremely steep, the roads 200 years old narrow and windy, and the snow deep and winters long. The drivers ed teachers knew we had to be good drivers to not die, the staties giving the exams (our tests are procktered by pissed off state troopers) knew we had to be good drivers, and everyone failed at least once (except my buddy whos car blew a sparkplug right out of its cylinder like a bottle rocket mid test. He jumped out, jury rigged it back together, and finished the test flawlessly. The statie had no choice but to pass that guy). ANYWAY point is all the rich kids who didnt know shit from shit had their parents drive them upwards of an hour away to take the test at this RMV well known for being huge pushovers with nearly no test, and they went to a very expensive drivers ed school where noone ever failed. Fucking parents

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:05

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Canada is much the same (every province has their own "DMV" but they're all very similar). I instantly understood why there are so many bad drivers when I finished my driving tests... the most difficult part was knowing to turn left on the green arrow at the intersection. I was never even asked to parallel park.
I took an advanced driver training course offered by BMW. Got to try out a skidpad, slalom course and emergency braking techniques. I feel as though everything they taught that day should be standard info that all drivers must know and experience.

Klaus Schmoll > CalzoneGolem 12/12/2013 at 16:05

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That sounds save! And good for the neighborhood.

BeetleCamry > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:07

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If you are waiting to be taught how to drive by Drivers Ed you've already failed…..

MIATAAAA > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:08

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My drivers' education course consisted mostly of a 17 year old girl with a Turbo Beetle talking to us about how much she speeds and is a hilariously terrible driver.

The instructor was out for almost the entire course.

Then I got to toodle around in a new Mustang for the practical portion of the class.

And VOILA! DRIVER'S LICENSE.

Irrelevant information: I recently rear-ended someone and my Miata is in the shop.

BeetleCamry > jariten1781 12/12/2013 at 16:09

1

Grew up on a farm here too, been driving things with wheels since I can ever remember. In order: big wheel-bicycle-go cart-4 wheeler-tractor-cotton combine-car. Most of my friends hadn't even been behind the wheel of a car until 18.

CalzoneGolem > Klaus Schmoll 12/12/2013 at 16:09

0

I found it amusing. It took my awhile to figure out what was going on.

ThatbastardKurtis > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:13

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Add to it the Massive Fail that is The American Parenting System...brought to you by The Baby Boomer Generation.
We teach Irresponsibility, Distraction, And It's All About Me...

Scorched-Earth > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:13

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With all the female teen accident, can someone please explain to me why a teen males insurance is stupidly higher. Plus, why do they have a good grade discount for insurance. When I was in high school it seemed like the honor roll students were the ones that plowed up their cars or had the fender benders.

Sergio526 > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:13

0

Kids today won't care unless you turn it into a reality show...

So You Think You Can Drive ! Do you have a friend who absolutely can't drive even though they got their license? Are you always surprised when they show up not dead? Nominate them for SYTYCD and get them the help they need before they kill themselves or others. God forbid you just tell them they can't drive without it turning into some kind of shit show!

Meatcoma > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:14

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- Taking the practical portion of the testing process, which consisted of 2 miserable hours in a Honda with my freakin' gym teacher telling me to "slow down and obey the speed limit" every time I attempted to blend into the flow of traffic.

When I was teaching my son to drive, I often made this statement "When you are driving, do this... When you are taking your test, do this..."

Racescort666 > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:15

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I couldn't agree more. SCCA has a drivers ed program but when I lived in Wichita we could never get anyone to take the course. I don't know if people didn't think we were qualified or what. Racecar drivers teaching your kids how to drive.

Granted most of us were amateur racers with mostly experience in the way of training. But when it comes down to it, racing demands the most control over a vehicle than anything else.

Being the young guy on the Board, I frequently was nominated to ride along with new people that were having trouble at autocrosses. As simple and dumb as it sounds, getting someone through an Autocross course will have a huge impact on their driving.

PukeSchmill > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:16

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Another problem is the lack of continued education/testing once an adult. You pass a test once and for the next 70 years you're fine to drive?! How about every 10 years or so Americans have to re-take a test. Laws change, people forget stuff, technology changes.

Big Block I-4 > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:16

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I agree with this completely. I think part of the problem is that drivers ed is an easy drop for a school system that needs to free up money or a teacher. When I was in high school, in PA, in 2005 I took drivers ed. I believe it was a semester long class that meet once or twice a week for 45 min. So in total about 15 hours of class time. I thought it prepared me very well for driving in the real world, but my parents also had me drive a lot with them. I probably drove about 60 hours if not more, instead of the required 25-30. I think that the states need to step up their game on making people go through some sort of "driving school". If they do not have the resources or man power, team up with a 3rd party private company that runs classes and certifies people to go get their license. Not only would this hopefully make people learn more, but it would also create jobs for driving instructors. But the states would never let this power out of their mitts. Oh bureaucracy.

PukeSchmill > Klaus Schmoll 12/12/2013 at 16:17

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I like your user name. Good comment also.

PushToStart > StevenG 12/12/2013 at 16:18

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Why do you say that?

joenationwide > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:20

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It should be mandatory for all new drivers to take and pass something like BMW's Street Survival Course. http://streetsurvival.org/

It teaches new drivers how to drive defensively and react to emergency situations. Its like autox lite with instruction. Not only is it extremely valuable, its also fun. It changes a lot of kids' minds who never thought driving could be anything more than just A to B transportation.

stoke > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:25

3

And let me explain WHY the system sucks.

Let's say you're the U.S. government and you want to reduce the number of fatalities on the roadways. You could:

A) Introduce nationally standardized driver testing procedures. Force all the individual states to spend hundreds of millions of additional budgetary dollars on revamping their DMV systems to include much more extensive driver training and testing procedures. Result: the states will refuse, because funding said programs would require them to increase taxes, which the state legislators won't want to do because it will get them voted out of office. And also state's rights yeehaw the south will rise again, etc. Cost: hundreds of millions of budget dollars, voting taxpayers angry, states angry. Drivers get better at driving.

B) Introduce new, more stringent vehicle safety standards that manufacturers must obey. Levy penalties if said standards are not obeyed. Result: states get to keep their independence in licensing standards, and while the car manufacturers may be pissed and have to jump through hoops, bulk up their cars and add expensive features, they don't vote, so who cares? Cost: Exactly zero budget dollars outside of the pre-existing federal funding for NHTSA. Added costs are absorbed by manufacturers and new car buyers, who don't see the government as the reason for rising vehicle prices. Voting taxpayers happy. States happy. Drivers continue to suck.

SpeedSix > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:27

2

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Officer Farva > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:29

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I didn't have the luxury of a driver's ed course because right when I was about to take it in high school, they decided to "save money" by dropping it altogether. Granted, it was and still is a small private school and their funds at the time didn't support it.

That left me with little other choice than to do it the old fashioned way. So, I got the manual and spent hours and hours practicing driving with my father. I think he taught me well too. The look on his face when I drove off in my own car after getting my license was priceless. He knew there and then that I was about to fly the coop. I moved out about a year later.

StevenG > PushToStart 12/12/2013 at 16:32

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Because and take this in the nicest way possible, all kids that age are dumbasses who should not be allowed to drive if at all possible. Including me at that age.

Seriously bookmark that post of yours and set a calendar reminder.

veteran011 > IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK 12/12/2013 at 16:35

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You could get a PERMIT AT 14 years old?

Driving_Impaired > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:37

2

couldn't agree more. almost every one of my friends is a terrible driver and it not only scares me to ride with them it angers me that they don't care they are bad drivers. some of them EMBRACE IT!

the habits begin when we learn to drive and if you don't learn the correct habits then, it's another 60-70 years of bad driving. the resources needed to educate young drivers should be a priority in this country.

it may sound dumb but creating better drivers creates better lives for everyone. imagine if everyone knew how to merge properly? less stress and traffic on commutes. if everyone was more aware of their surroundings... less accidents, deaths, injuries... the list goes on.

92Camaro > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:39

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This is a great point. I would also venture to say that the government only makes this trend worse. Government mandated tire pressure sensors, backup cameras, and probably auto-braking soon. It's taking the driver out of the driving.

On top of more rigorous testing, I think that new drivers should be taught about the mechanical function of automobiles and what they are actually doing when they press the gas pedal. Furthermore, new drivers should be required to go out on a wet parking lot and slide around a bit. This would teach them how cars lose control, and what the driver needs to do to fix the problem. All of this should be done with a manual transmission car, which forces the new driver to focus more and disregard distractions.

Great article.

chrisbattle > BeetleCamry 12/12/2013 at 16:39

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It is definitely an attitude problem. My driving progression was pretty similar to yours. Even prior to doing the driving, I was always sitting on the fender or my dad's lap shifting, steering, etc. I have never been in a wreck (at fault or otherwise). However, I have cousins (admittedly a little more "whiskey tango" than I) who followed the same path and totalled more cars than most will ever owned (including my XJ, a '84 Jeep J10, 2... 2! Honda rancher 4x4s, the list goes on)

CAR_IS_MI > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:41

1

The MSF course taught me nothing other than a few obscure laws in my area (then again I had been riding dirt bikes since I was a wee little kid). I agree it would be more helpful in general to have a similar program for drivers.

racermd > PushToStart 12/12/2013 at 16:42

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At the risk of shaking my old man fist (I'm pushing closer to 40 than I'd like), the reason teens are nearly universally blamed for bad driving behavior is simply because that's where the bulk of the initial training takes place. And, while I agree with you wholeheartedly (teens that are bad at driving often turn into adults that are bad at driving - in other words, still a problem), those bad driving habits and attitudes can be more easily corrected at the early stages of driver training. As a result, the focus is on teens learning to drive.

That said, I'm all in favor of mandatory re-testing for EVERYONE with particular attention paid to those with multiple traffic violations, DUIs, and some other obvious-but-sensitive demographics (read: those of advanced age). Make the tests straightforward to address but realistic enough to really test a person's ability to handle a vehicle. If you can't pass, you are sent back to class or have to otherwise prove you've addressed the reason, even medical, for your failing before being allowed to test again. This is to keep people from simply taking the test over and over again with the (stupid) hope that they'll hit a nicer, more lenient evaluator on the next try. Not to mention a real knowledge test so everyone can stay current on new developments in traffic rules (hello, roundabouts and zipper-merge!).

Just be sure to wake me up when it happens 'cause I know I'm dreaming.

gearboxtrouble > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:43

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Its pretty shocking for sure. I live in Houston TX and the standards here are some of the worst I have ever seen. I've lived in the States for a decade and I generally found Midwestern and North Eastern drivers far superior. In contrast my training in the UK was a near year long ordeal that involved driving in nearly every situation with either an instructor or my dad and a L plate.

autojim > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:43

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This is something of a "thing" for me — I want to see more stringent skills testing requirements. I want to see more skills training — along the lines of Street Survival courses at a minimum. I want to see periodic retesting.

Graduated licensing is a step in the right direction, but does not address the training. When I took driver's ed back in the early '80s, it was a semester-long class at my high school with classroom (including the infamous "Blood on the Highway" films from the '50s, simulators that were, frankly, horrible in that there was zero feedback (and since it had a common video screen for the entire room full of sims, showing actual 16mm film, not even visual feedback of the picture changing perspective as you sawed at the sim wheel), and driving around with one of the assistant football coaches in a Renault Alliance donated by the local dealer whose daughter would've been one of my classmates had her dad not sent her to a private high school.

No skid control. No braking exercises beyond not hitting stuff stopped in front of you at stoplights. More emphasis was placed on parallel parking than inclement weather driving.

I didn't get what I'd consider proper driver training until I took the course LEOs took. And since then, I've taken several advanced car control, autocross, and racing schools, and put those skills into practice. I've also instructed at schools.

When my stepdaughter got to driving age, we lived in a state with graduated licensing. While she took a private driver's ed course, she also spent a lot of time with me learning about situational awareness, car control in adverse conditions, ABS use (and how to spot whether the car she's driving has it), what full-throttle feels like, what full-force braking feels like, evasive maneuvers, how sometimes standing on the center pedal is exactly the WRONG thing to do, and I even taught her how to drive a stickshift (not that she had any interest in autocross or owning a manual transmission car herself — I consider that a necessary skill for any driver. Easily-plausible situation: she's out with a friend, who drove, but then had too much to drink. She's sober. Friend's car's a stick. At least she can drive them both home).

None of those things are required by the state. But they sure as hell were required by me. The girlfriend's son has so far expressed minimal interest in learning to drive (though he's gonna have to Real Soon Now), much as he has always had minimal interest in going outdoors in general, but he's going to get the works, too. Because if he learns the skills — and more importantly, the mindset — it can keep him alive and unharmed.

BeetleCamry > chrisbattle 12/12/2013 at 16:44

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Hell yea, same here. Only been in 2 wrecks, and both of those I was rear ended by people on cell-phones….go figure.

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > veteran011 12/12/2013 at 16:45

1

14 years 9 months, couldn't drive without a parent in the car.

PushToStart > StevenG 12/12/2013 at 16:46

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I'm not sure if I understand what you said correctly, but if I'm not mistaken, you told me to take that you just called me a dumbass in the "nicest way possible" which I'm not sure is possible. And yes, as I said before, a lot of teens are bad drivers, and it might seem easy to think that I am just another teen that says "yeah, I'm a good driver" and really isn't, and there's no way I can prove otherwise to you, and I'm not really trying to. However, I am confident in my driving abilities, but not too confident because I know I still have things to learn, and I plan on learning them in a more advanced driving school/program. As for you saying that you weren't a good driver as a teen, that's kind of your deal and as far as I'm concerned, you can't really say that we're alike since we don't know each other.
And since it's hard to tell tone through the Internet, I will now say that I'm not trying to be rude and I'm not pissed off, I'm just stating the above as a response.

J-Tenno > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:46

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I'm a Finnish citizen but I live in Spain, where I also got my driver's license so I shall narrate how the Spanish system works. This was almost 2 years ago.

Go to a driving school (there are lots of them, some very small, some are large companies which are nationwide.)

Sign up for the B1 course (=for cars) and start the classes.

Go to the classes and after every class study the chapter you just learned in class (+ all the earlier chapters) on the computers which are at the driving school. This meant that there were progressively more and more questions in the tests, which were quite varied and asked anything between what's the speed limit on a certain road with certain qualities to what does x hand gesture by a police officer mean.
In the end of the test you saw your score which would ideally have less than 2 mistakes. Every test had 30 questions if I recall correctly.
I did at least a dozen or so of them after a class.

When you have completed the book, which is almost an inch or so thick, and know it pretty much perfectly from start to end, you sign up for the theory test. 2 years ago it was done with paper and pen, nowadays with computers but in essence it's the same: You see a picture, there are 4 options and according to the picture you choose the right answer. This could be a correct definition of x traffic sign (there were lots and lots of trick questions) and so on.
3 errors allowed, if you don't pass, come back again next week.

If you happened to pass it, you can proceed to driving classes. This, in my case, was done in a big Spanish city in a BMW 116d or 118d, not sure (debadged). It was pretty hard, even more so on rush hour, the streets are narrow, drivers can be very erratic and you have to keep an eye to everything at the same time and at first you just can't do it all due to lack of muscle memory. Ah, the cars are manual by the way, which makes it much harder for someone starting to drive.
And since the cars are driven 60k miles by people learning to drive, just imagine how shot the clutch was. My current car's clutch is a marshmallow compared to it. I had around 10 driving classes I think, each 1.5 hrs, 40 minutes were spent on highways, sadly. The cars are equipped with double pedals, meaning that the driving instructor can essentially drive from the passenger side, he has his brake, gas and clutch pedals and he can easily reach to the steering wheel.

Once you feel good enough about your driving skills, you sign up for the final exam and hope you get a nice cloudy day without traffic and an easy zone (the exam zones are random). The examiner sits behind your driving instructor and keeps track of everything, the tiniest mistake is recorded and with enough tiny mistakes, you fail, 1 or 2 big ones fail too.
First 15 minutes are autonomous driving, you drive where you please (if you're dumb, you go for the hard bits, if not, you know where to go), then the last 15 minutes the driving instructor tells you to go to x place and in the end, park the car correctly and turn it off.

Do this correctly and in around a month you have your driving license in your hands. Congratulations!

In the end it cost me around 1000 euros, I know that in Finland it's around +2500€.

LodestarRunner > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:47

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Anyone here take the Driver's Edge program when it was offered? I did when I was 16 years old and it was a fantastic program for new drivers and taught accident avoidance, car inspection and skid correction. It was truly invaluable and was free!

DCCARGEEK > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:48

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I have a few minutes so I’ll ad my $.02 as I’ve been a rather vocal author of pieces regarding driver’s education and the guy who put together some of the data and points made in the TTAC article (aka, the DCAutoGeek).

First, keep in mind that this is state by state. The federal government has over the years pushed to encourage states to implement graduated licensing, but the jury is out as to whether that works or not.

Many studies have looked at the crash rates for teens in states that migrated to GDLs and they’ve found that in many cases when the process became too cumbersome (read: work) and was capped for a certain age, that many younger people deferred licensing until the restrictions no longer applied. In other words instead of Johnny learning to drive from 16-19, he is handed a DL when he turns 19 and passes the simple exam. This is not good as he hasn’t developed the years of driving knowledge and lacks any of the hands-on education.

As to your comment about speed and crashes – funny you mention that. Earlier today NHTSA released a new study that basically said that while people who speed also take other risks like talking on their phone while driving, that the data didn’t indicate a significantly higher rate of crash. I’ll do my best to write up a summary of the report for the Oppo crew at a later time.

I wished I could go more in depth regarding some of the historic reports I’ve read, but between my full time job and two kids, I’m running low on midnight oil.

Here is a collection of useful reports conducted by NHTSA on young drivers and is focused on GDLs - http://www.nhtsa.gov/Driving+Safety…

Also, be sure to search for reports by each State’s Department of Transportation.

Sorry I don’t have time to expand on this topic more. It is a very important topic and one that is much bigger than just training as it delves into the cultural perception of personal responsibility (see recent story of drunken 16 year-old in Texas).

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:48

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Or this...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/11/us/…

FelixScout > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:51

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OK well by comparison here was my Driver's Ed course in IL in the mid 90's

- Starting at age 15 you could take drivers ed in HS or through a private company.

- While the course is taught by one our gym teachers and a few others it was a whole semester long (9 weeks or so) and was 2x a week.

- The first two weeks involved book learning, quizzes, and 60's vintage simulator training. The simulator was meh since it really was a way to just go through the motions and help them become second nature, though without any feedback other than alight on the dash.

- After that point the class was split in three groups: one for continued class work, one for simulator, and one for in car time. This meant everyone got 5 hours on street driving time in 6 weeks under supervision, in a '95 Caprice Classic. In car was OK since my instructor wanted us to understand how to control the vehicle and that when you had to merge onto a highway floor it meant floor it. It at least nailed the fundamentals down.

- If you complete the course to the satisfaction of the instructors you got a learners permit and the ability to take the test at 16. At that point their parting words were get as much time behind the wheel with a licensed driver as possible. I think I stacked up about 300 hours driving time at that point, maybe more. This is where I got my "advanced instruction" from a man who learned how to drive in NYC in the 1950's, had more than a few driving based jobs, and owned a string of British Sports cars in the 60's.

- Then take a test that was 20 multiple choice, 20 matching (half signs) and 20 min on street driving. The driving portion was a go over of the stuff we learned in class so if you had plenty of in car time it was a breeze.

In the end it was a slightly better set-up than the author had but I feel if my Dad and even Mom hadn't helped get me hours behind the wheel I wouldn't have had a next to perfect score on my test.

StevenG > PushToStart 12/12/2013 at 16:52

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Like I said read it again in a decade.

And read my reply then too. You will get it then.

Malforus > Converse 12/12/2013 at 16:52

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I would venture the fact that they need to be registered with the state as driving instructors. In PA our drivers ed teacher was a state driving instructor/exam giver. So I got my license through my drivers ed class when I was 16.

He was a hardass and yes this was a half-year class that met 1 hour a day 3 days a week.

Officer Farva > noise 12/12/2013 at 16:52

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Doesn't sound like Vermont to me. Very close though by your description.

At least my father took the time to teach me how to drive and let me practice beating up his '88 Reliant K wagon.

Malforus > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:54

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Much like public schooling and ethics, the real separation in the US comes down to parents.

Good parents teach their children to be good drivers, bad parents skate with the minimum and foster a "just enough" mentality.

klurejr > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 16:55

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As a fellow Rider I see multiple distracted drivers looking at their phone instead of the road every day. Just this morning I saw what is in the Video Clip linked. I started using my GoPro everyday for my commute in case one of them tries to kill me with their 4000lb death machine.

I did not take the MSF course, rather I hired an ex-CHP officer who has a bike training program and spent 2 hours with him at the DMV parking lot being taught about slow speed handling. (I rode dirt bikes for ages and had a good grasp on riding before I ever got a street bike, but knowing how to ride a bike at 8mph on the skills course took some learning for me.) I can see where the safety courses are indeed very helpful for people new to riding because things I learned from crashing my dirt bike in the desert are a lesson you can only learn on the street through great damage, injury and possibly death. So for those new to motorcycles, find a class and enroll.

Unfortunately nothing but extreme enforcement can lower the amount of morons who allow themselves to be distracted on the road by a phone(reading, typing, searching, etc), Food, Make-up, Shaving, reading a book (I once saw a woman reading to her kids in the back seat and she was partly turned around facing the back seat while doing so.....), or anything else that requires you to take your eyes off the road or both hands off the wheel.

More education would be great, but I don't think it will solve the problem 100%, not all who listen will learn and apply. Plenty of people on the road have the knowledge, the ones who cause accidents lack the Wisdom to apply it.

deekster_caddy > ZDMW 12/12/2013 at 16:59

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This sounds like my experience. Real seat-time was very short, and went on the highway for one whole exit (about 1/3 mile). Most of the seat-time was shared, since it was during or immediately after school hours, so there were 3 students in the car and each got about 20 minutes of the 1 hour "driving" session. I also remember an argument I had with the driving instructor, I'll never forget it:

My dad taught me (and this makes sense to me) - while stopped on a busy road waiting to make a left turn across traffic, keep the front wheels pointed straight ahead. This way if you are rear-ended you do not go directly into the oncoming traffic. Sounds okay, right? The driving instructor insisted that the wheels be turned left in that situation. He said 'so you can quickly dart through an opening if one comes up.' This makes no sense to me - I can turn the wheel very quickly when I want to, plus it encourages taking a risky turn.

We argued about it for a few minutes, then he removed me from the driver's seat and gave somebody else a turn. Hey, I was 16, I didn't know I should have just shut up and yessir'd the guy. But to this day I'm still convinced he was wrong.

CzechMonster > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 17:00

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I got my Driver's License back in Czechoslovakia. I'm not going to bother with the process or the length unless you want to hear it, but let's just say getting DL in the USA is a joke.

Officer Farva > Meatcoma 12/12/2013 at 17:00

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My dad said exactly the same thing regarding driving with one hand on the wheel. It's ok on the road but always have it at the correct position for the test. I'll change it up but when the roads are bad, I have both hands on the wheel at all times.

cuts_off_prius > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 17:02

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This should be framed in ever drivers ed classroom in America: "Driving Is Not A Right; It's A Privilege."

TheRealMikeyG > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 17:04

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Interesting because in order for me to get a drivers license when I was young in Iowa Drivers Education consisted of a semester long class which involved three different portions.

1. Classroom lecture which met once per week and was the same length as any other class period. This included everything from operation of a vehicle to vehicular laws as well as simple tasks that a car driver would need to know how to accomplish including fueling a vehicle, changing a tire, and emergency preparedness.

2. Simulator instruction which met once per week in an actual simulator lab that had 30 sit down simulators which had everything a car did including seat belts and you watched a projected film and made driving decisions based upon your viewing. You were graded each session and could immediately see based upon feedback lights what you had done wrong.

3. On the road driving which met once per week and consisted of driving a car that had an instructor in the passenger seat who had a secondary brake and accelerator pedal but not a steering wheel, and up to three additional student drivers in the back seat. This driving progressed from the high school parking lot to local neighborhood roads, to city roads, to county roads and state highways to the interstate system roads. Not only did you have to pass each section before you could go to the next, we had to actually learn our way around the city (not a huge city but a city of 80,000) and be able to properly navigate to a given destination using the quickest route. The instructor would also have us practice emergency maneuvers in the school lot monthly such as emergency stops, emergency avoidance, and the like.

BlueSoap > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 17:07

1

When I went for licence at 16, I had to partake in the Graduated Licence Program here in Ontario,Canada. No school driving instruction (do not think we have that). I purchased the Driver's Handbook and diligently read and re-read it at home,at school, and anywhere really.

When I thought I was ready we went to the DriveTest centre, paid $100, took an eye exam, and then did the written test. I passed which meant I received a G1 Licence.

G1 stated that I could only drive with a licensed driver of min. 4yrs driving experience,said 4yr driver had to be in front passenger awake and not under the influence of drugs or alcohol,could not drive over 80km/h,could not drive after certain time at night until a certain time in the morning (not sure the times anymore),could not have any alcohol in my system while driving.

I took a driving course that covered the theory first then covered the practical. While taking the driving course my parents let me drive,and showed me how to parallel park (what a PITA when first trying that manoeuvre).

After a year with the G1 I went for my G2 driving test. I passed and did not pay for the G2 test seeing as it was covered under the $100 I paid earlier.

G2 allowed me to drive alone,drive on the Hwy,I still could not have any alcohol in my system,and I think the night driving restriction was waved.

A year and a bit after getting the G2 I went for my G driving test. That cost $75. Passing granted me a full licence.

I did not mind the extra time,it gave me the experience of driving in all weather types with my father and mother coaching me. I also had my grandfather helping,he was a TTC driver with an impeccably clean professional and non-professional driving record. I think it is better than writing the test,a few months later taking the driving test and then driving fully licensed. Where is the months of experience in different weather conditions day and night?

PaulCahill-Go2Fast > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 17:11

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When I went to high school in the 90s in the State of IL, you took a aquarter-long drivers ed class, had driving instruction a couple times a week for XX number of hours. Then you had to have your permit for some time (6 months maybe?). You couldn't graduate high school w/o taking the class.

Mikey > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 17:12

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My girlfriend's sister hit another car during her driving test, still got her license. Her other sister didn't even do the practical driving portion and still got her license.

'murica???

QuikSlvr223 > veteran011 12/12/2013 at 17:14

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That's how it is here in Kansas, too.

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > veteran011 12/12/2013 at 17:31

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Permit? I had a full on license at 14 to drive myself to school. Yay rural Nebraska!

Erebus330 > IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK 12/12/2013 at 17:32

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I grew up in Kansas, permit age was 14 at the time. We could drive without a parent in the car for three reasons - driving to and from school, to and from work, anything farm related. It was all very normal at that time. They've probably changed it since then, I don't know. But by the time I was 14 I had tons of experience driving farm implements, ATVs, and the occasional pickup. Looking back, all that seat time paid dividends. It's a shame there aren't more ways to get kids seat time in safe settings these days.

I Can be Stig? > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 17:40

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I help out with this in our area 2X's a year. I wish it would get more publicity. Every time we have a school we invite out the local media, but they never come. Yet they all will all run a story about a teen drier killed ad nauseum.

http://streetsurvival.org/

GreenPlease > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 17:41

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So I've got a true story to share. When I turned 16 I went to the DMV in Winter Park, FL to get my driver's license. There was a long line for the driving test and the guy in line infront of me struck up a conversation:

Him: "You ever taken this test before?"
Me: "Nope, first time."
Him: (nervously) "This is my third fucking time man. The instructor has it in for me"
Me: "Really?"
Him: (sucking nervously on a cigarette, line was outside) "Yeah man, I get this old lady every time man and she just messes the whole thing up. She's tough man. She doesn't let anything slide."

Some time passes, guy in front of me finally takes his turn on the driven portion of the test. Right out of the gates the guy chirps the tires while accelerating, then screeches said tires when coming to a stop (it was a relatively new car mind you). Takes a left, doesn't signal, and chirps the tires again. While executing a three point turn he knocks over two traffic cones. He ended up getting his license.

I know a lot of people here are opposed to autonomous vehicles for a variety of reasons... probably primarily because "driving" is part of their culture and they're scared to see it go away. However, if you spent half the year in Florida, like me, you'd be praying for autonomous vehicles. There's a saying here that you're either 90 or you drive 90. Teens down here speed and flat out drive recklessly. Old people drive erratically and are flat out dangerous. Wealthy trophy wives text and drive. Wealthy husbands of said trophy wives drive like asshats. The populace, in general, considers a red light as a suggestion. How there aren't more serious accidents, I don't know.

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > Erebus330 12/12/2013 at 17:41

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You mean to tell me Grand Theft Auto isn't good seat time?

leepompey > Klaus Schmoll 12/12/2013 at 17:45

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In the UK they follow and have helmets with a voice system in them to pass instructions to the learners.

noise > Officer Farva 12/12/2013 at 17:47

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Western MA up in the hill towns. And fuck, those k wagons were not well known for their snow abilities. And i think my favorite snow driving lesson was when i was 17 from my grandfather. He taught me all the intricacies of filling the back of the chevy truck with buckets of sand, and how to do a 3 point turn on a hill in the snow with a standard. But it was a 90 s10 so the clutch was optional you could just force it, which helps in that situation.

GrobiFarnsworth > duurtlang 12/12/2013 at 17:49

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Germany's got pretty much the exact same rules. And looking at most drivers around here I'd really like it if you'd have to take the test again every ten years or so..
EDIT: Except since a few years back you're allowed to get the license at 17 and drive with a parent (or other registered driver) in the passenger seat until your 18th birthday.

duurtlang > GrobiFarnsworth 12/12/2013 at 17:57

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They've changed it here as well, after I got my license. In about exactly the way you described the change in Germany.

Sometimes I think Germany should become another province of the Kingdom/Empire of the Netherlands, other than the language we're quite alike :)

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 18:01

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When I went through the process, it was a bit of a joke. I got my School Permit in 2002, but I know it's changed and (hopefully) is harder.

Rural Nebraska, no bus systems to get to school, so you can get a School Permit at 14 that let you drive to school, alone. You got the School Learners at 14, or could full on take the test then too, no waiting. School Learners let you drive anywhere, anytime with a parent/guardian in the car.

The test was pretty simple. Standard multiple choice and a very easy driving test with the DMV. That gave you a School Permit good to drive to and from school only, with any siblings who also went to the same school. No parent needed.

Drivers Ed with school came either the summer after 8th grade or 9th grade, I don't remember. The point is most people already had their license, so it was just a formal write-off for insurance. It was a week or two of 9 to noon classes. Then a week during the following school year, driving around for a few hours with a teacher. Again, just a formal write-off since everyone was already *driving themselves to school*.

At 16 you could literally just walk into the DMV and upgrade to your full license. That gave you driving anywhere, from 5AM to Midnight. I think you only had to take the vision test.

Then at 18 you again walked in, took the vision test, and upgraded to a full license, no time restrictions.

The tricky part is the upgrades at 16 and 18 also depended on having a clean driving record. If you got caught driving someplace that wasn't to/from school or after hours, you got some pretty steep fines, and in some cases couldn't get your full license until you were 18.

duurtlang > Klaus Schmoll 12/12/2013 at 18:02

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I failed to add; when my dad (1952) got his motorcycle training last year there was no car involved. When they were ready to practice in actual traffic there were three motorcycles, two with a student and one with an instructor giving instructions via a headset.

vroompshhhh > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 18:07

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The smashed up car in the picture you're using for an an article about American driver's ed is RHD.

David Gabel > noise 12/12/2013 at 18:13

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THIS. so, so very much This.

ranwhenparked > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 18:26

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Keep in mind though that as long as people are dying from something, some thing will always be the #1 cause of death, and since young people don't get strokes, heart attacks, Alzheimer's, etc, accidents of some sort are likely to always be the #1 cause of death in that age group, since there isn't much else they can die from (baring horrifically tragic and fairly rare diseases).

Mr. Ligier 812 GTC4Lusso Rubicon Pista > StevenG 12/12/2013 at 18:31

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What Steven said +10000. I was an idiot at that age, no matter what I thought or said.

MoparOrNoCar (Okay, maybe a Mazda?) > William Byrd 12/12/2013 at 18:38

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18 year old here (from PA, an easy state to get a license). I have to agree... MAKE THE TESTS HARDER PLEASE. I know of way too many people who should not be driving in my school alone. Seriously, if I see their car, I take an alternate route, or get away ASAP.

I would have killed for the opportunity to take a driving school like that, especially for the advanced car control. PA needs it bad, particularly because of snow. I just wish I could find one.

I agree that retesting should be a thing too.

SmokeyAndTheBullitt > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 18:48

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I'd say the equivalent driver's ed in Australia is vastly better. Teens here can't apply for a license until they're 16 - to get a license they need to go to the motor registry (DMV) and pass a 45 multiple choice test that is designed to fail those who haven't studied the appropriate material. After that, your photo is taken and your (learner's) license is issued to you, and you have to complete 120 hours in the car with a supervisor - 20 of those at night - in all types of driving conditions.

A driving instructor can be hired to boost your hours (1 hour with an instructor = 3 log book hours) but you can only take advantage of this for 10 hours before it defaults to 1:1. At 50 hours in, there's an optional Safer Driving School that can be attended so you only have to do 80 hours before you can go for your driving test.

The driving test to get your stage one provisional (red P's) is a practical one and depending on the supervisor you get, you may or not fail on the smallest error or lapse of judgement. If you pass, you can now drive unsupervised, but it's not a full license - you're limited to 90km/h at all times (someone convert that to mph for the 'Muricans here) and there is a zero tolerance for drink driving - no alcohol in your system while behind the wheel of a car AT ALL.

You have to hold the provisional license for another 12 months before you can apply for stage two provisional (green P's here) and it's another 12 months before you get your full license. And the effectiveness of the system shows because we don't get reports of accidents like these Down Under. We're nowhere near as good as German drivers but we're still better than your average American driver.

Union of Smog Techs of CA > PushToStart 12/12/2013 at 19:12

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Resisting the urge to make broad sweeping statements based on mostly personal experience in a effort to excuse oneself from another persons generalization of a situation that potentially casts dispersions on ones abilities is a skill that only comes with age is what I believe the gentlemen is trying convey, young sir.

Wolc *grammar nazis go f*** yourselves* > Klaus Schmoll 12/12/2013 at 19:12

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Same in Estonia

GrobiFarnsworth > duurtlang 12/12/2013 at 19:31

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Your drug legislation makes me want to agree with you, but that'ld mean no more Autobahnen w/o speed limit. That said, I'm always pleasantly surprised how relaxing it is to do cruise controlled 125kph all the time while on vacation in your lovely country.

EarendilE30 > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 19:32

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Great writeup, and I agree that drivings ed in the states isn't worth beans. But I think you need to make your case a little better. Just because you can find a couple hundred teen drivers that have killed or done serious harm in a country of 350,000,000 doesn't mean you have a problem. Ideally it would be zero, but I think you need to show that, at least on the surface, countries with better drivers programs also have fewer teen accidents. Also, it would have to be accidents per mile driven, as Americas reliance on and love of cars puts our average seat time at a young age a lot higher than many European countries with very strict license laws.

Also, I'm curious about all of the above and don't want to do the research myself ;-)

langadamd > William Byrd 12/12/2013 at 19:34

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Totally agree with you. I am from Wisconsin, where we have snow for about 6 months of the year, so I needed to learn how to drive in it. That usually consisted of me and my Dad in a parking lot screwing off. It was probably the best thing that I could have done to learn car control in the winter.

Casper > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 19:35

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First problem with driver's ed: It focuses on the least important part of driving, the laws. People need to be conditioned to safe habits and required to constantly keep them sharp. The two biggest fallacies people use when trying to improve driving safety is the idea you can legislate safety and that driving longer makes you better.

Making something illegal does not prevent it from happening and many laws are ignored other than if a police officer is seen. Further making this line of logic fail is the fact the majority of laws regarding driving are not safety related. A huge number are simply there to provide probable cause to officers looking to execute a traffic stop, more are there for revenue and taxation purposes, and others are simply items pushed through by special interests.

The second big mistake people make is believing with time they are becoming better drivers. This is generally inaccurate. You become a better driver as you become more comfortable. Driving was never inherently difficult, it just seemed difficult when you were thinking about everything and stressing about everything involved. Now, the quality of driving drastically drops as the driver becomes over confident. You see this usually after the first 6 to 10 months of someone starting to drive. Compounding the issue is the adoption of bad habits. These can range from poorly checking blind spots to illogically bad "safety" practices and even to the idiotic "multitasking" concept.

If you want to make drivers be safer, punish them for ACTUALLY causing a crash (not hypothetical crashes), and require them to refresh and certify their skills every 5 years or so at a private certification program.

The Dief > No, I don't thank you for the fish at all 12/12/2013 at 19:40

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Too many poor people depend on their car to get to work/school. Until public transportation can be massively improved, we can't start making the driver's license prohibitively difficult. If we do, rich people will be fine (taxis, pay for extra training/insurance) while poor people will be unable to get to work.

Start with massive improvements to public transportation, then make it more difficult to drive. Too many people on the road don't want to be there. They need to be there.